HOW TO CARRY WATER with Shoog McDaniel

Fat activist Allison Graham talks to photographer Shoog McDaniel about what it was like to be on the other side of the lens for the documentary about their life and art practice.

“I want people to see the movie and not be able to see a difference between the beautiful spring water and the beautiful Belly. I want it to be one and the same.” — Shoog McDaniel on the Periodical Podcast

“My work is about highlighting bodies and lives that are often overlooked by popular society. I enjoy photographing fat bodies, trans bodies, and queer bodies. People with gap-toothed smiles and missing buttons … I strive to connect the viewer of each photo to beauty within themselves, through understanding the brilliancy of diversity, by showing them that there are many ways to be beautiful.” — Shoog McDaniel, from a statement on ShoogMcDaniel.com 

Transcript

Lela Meadow-Conner (00:08):
Welcome back to the rePROFilm Podcast, Volume 27, Part 2 I’m Lela Meadow-Conner, co-founder of rePROFilm sitting in for Asha Dahya and I’m thrilled to welcome fat activist Allison Graham back to the podcast. In part 2, Allison interviews Shoog McDaniel, a photographer and artist and the subject of this month’s rePROFilm Periodical selection How to Carry Water.Shoog is a southern, queer, non-binary, fat photographer and artist living in Tallahassee, Florida. Shoog’s work is about highlighting bodies and lives that are often overlooked by popular society. photographing fat bodies, trans bodies, and queer bodies. Shoog strives to connect the viewer of each photo to beauty within themselves, through understanding the brilliancy of diversity, by showing them that there are many ways to be beautiful.The epitome of bodily autonomy in so many ways. A content warning: intentional weight loss and sexual violence are mentioned in this conversation, please take care while listening. And now we’ll dive right in as Allison asks Shoog about the genesis of How to Carry Water.

Allison Graham (01:14): Did somebody approach you for it or was it your idea or how did that come about?

Shoog McDaniel (01:20):
Well, my friend Sasha, who's the director, got an offer from this production company called Multitude Films. They were going to produce four short films highlighting Queer Futures, and they asked Sasha, Hey, do you have any ideas? We want to make some positive leaning queer fronted films, and so Sasha immediately thought of me. We had talked a lot about maybe doing something together one day, and so she approached me and we started talking and that's kind of how it bloomed. We basically just combined a lot of the imagery and stuff that I use on a daily basis in the work that I do as a photographer in Florida, and we kind of made it into somewhat of a story or yeah, it's just very ethereal, just gives the vibes of fat liberation.

Allison Graham (02:19):
So you're used to photographing fat bodies, trans bodies, queer bodies, marginalized bodies in general. What does it mean to you to be on the other end of the camera for this kind of film, this kind of art?

Shoog McDaniel (02:36):
It feels really weird. It was definitely an experience and that film was kind of a turning point, and I have been photographed a lot more now and just more comfortable with it, but at first it was definitely like I don't have control what's going on. It flowed well because of our friendship. It's been so long. We've had a friendship for over 20 years, so we just know each other very well. We were able to tell when each other needed a break or needed a little to not be pushed as hard and that kind of stuff. So

Allison Graham (03:14):
That's some of the best relationships is when you can anticipate each other's needs or even acknowledge and be like, okay, yeah, we need to take a break.

Shoog McDaniel (03:24):
Yeah, exactly. And breaks was the name of the game and a lot of changing directions when it wasn't working.

Allison Graham (03:32):
So one of my favorite parts of the movie, and you might be surprised by this but maybe not, is when you are being introduced to the film, you are being introduced to the audience. You are in your car and you're grooving and the music's nice and you're just vibing, and I'm curious about what was going through your head when that was going, because you said it's been kind of weird to be on the other end of the camera.

Shoog McDaniel (04:01):
Yeah, I tried to really become embodied. I worked really hard to just feel the music and let myself go into a place where I could just feel true, authentic joy. I wanted that to come through in the camera and I feel like it did. I'm just kind of a silly goofy guy, and a lot of times people don't know that until they get to spend time with me, so I wanted to make sure people just had a little sense of my personality

Allison Graham (04:30):
And some confidence too.

Shoog McDaniel (04:33):
Yeah,

Allison Graham (04:34):
I feel weird a little bit about talking about confidence and fatness because it's not like, oh, you're so confident. It was just like, yeah, I am who I am and I like it and I'm grooving.

Shoog McDaniel (04:48):
Exactly. Yeah. I don't take any offense about the confidence thing because it's really a big struggle to get to that place, and I have had a very long journey that is still, I'm still on. Nobody really ends the journey, I would say. I think it's always up and down, and in that moment it felt good. We were making art and making art is really my confidence place. I do it every day all the time, and I feel really good at it. So yeah,

Allison Graham (05:21):
I think that healing, that statement about healing is accurate because the Buddhists say never achieve, simply continue, and that's what that healing looks like.

Shoog McDaniel (05:32):
Yeah, there's not really an end goal, just like we'll always be working to be better people for our whole lives.

Allison Graham (05:40):
What I really took from the movie was these were really important places to you. It looks like this is where you shoot a lot of your work. You're very comfortable with that area, and some of that is in your home, maybe in your car, and it very much gave off the vibes of this is a cherished space, so what was it like to have a peek inside some of these intimate places on film in this way?
Shoog McDaniel (06:11):
There was some vulnerability that came with it because one of the places specifically in the film where everyone's in the red bathing suits is a place that is kind of off the beaten path. It's kind of back in the woods, it's adjacent to a park, but it's not where everyone usually goes. There's a spring on one side and then you walk back up into the woods and then there's this little spot that you can go get in the water in a tiny little spring. It's called Mermaid Spring, and it's really, yeah, it's just a special place and it felt, it always feels very reverent to me there, and I felt vulnerable having all these people out there with cameras and just the documentation piece of it felt like exposing in a way of this very sacred space, but I'm continuously understanding that people need to understand me and to understand my work, you need to understand where I live and why I'm so attached to it, and in Florida in general right now, there's so much Florida hate because of the political climate here, when in reality the people and the animals and the plants are what really keeps me here, and I wanted that place to be able to be shown.
It was shot in my yard a lot, and that was also vulnerable, but in a way, it's just like I want to show, I want people to be let in. I want people to be able to access joy like that themselves, and so in order to do that, I have to share it.

Allison Graham (07:46):
I like that, and I think there's something to be said about living in a state that is almost like a political landmine for marginalized bodies. I think we're in Kansas and we're talking about reproductive justice in line with fatness, and so I can definitely empathize with that. You just talked about the red swimsuits. I'm not sure if this is in the same space, but I'm curious if you designed pose the subjects when they were in the scene of almost just above the water, so their heads were kind of peeking out and then they have these cool flower type things. Yeah,
Shoog McDaniel (08:31):
They're crowns. That was an idea that Sasha and I definitely were thinking about together. We wanted to, again, keep it very mysterious, keep in line with the swamp aesthetic, and I actually wasn't there that day, so that was Sasha directing that piece. I got injured and I went to the hospital. Sasha knows my work very well, so I really trusted her a lot to be able to bring my vision through, which I feel she did.

Allison Graham (08:59): I kind of thought of them as the embodiment of an alligator, a crocodile

Shoog McDaniel (09:05): Definitely. That was the vibe

Allison Graham (09:07): And very beautiful, but won't take any shit.

Shoog McDaniel (09:11): Exactly. That's what I am trying to bring forward in other fat queer folks too.

Allison Graham (09:20):
Kind of shifting a little bit, the film plunges the audience into a world of fat, beauty and liberation and fat joy. What specific elements throughout the film or scenes do you think most powerfully convey this message?

Shoog McDaniel (09:39):
Probably the eating scene. It's very taboo for fat people to be seen eating. There's a lot of hiding when people eat because just not wanting to appear fatter than you are by what you're eating, so I really wanted to lean into that in the opposite direction obviously, and show messy, abundant, full on deliciousness and really give no care to what society would want from us. In that moment,

Allison Graham (10:13): I can see that it's like the complete opposite of the good fatty,

Shoog McDaniel (10:19):
And then we all slept, took a nap. It's just like the lazy fatty just eats and sleeps. Something you hear growing up all the time, and I wanted to be like, what are you going to do? That's what I'm doing and I'm living an amazing life. What can you do? So it's like you can't take my personhood and my happiness from me

Allison Graham (10:42):
Actually when you all are sleeping afterwards. It kind of reminded me of the, I'm probably going to say it wrong, the Anne Getty's photographs of babies curled up in nature.

Shoog McDaniel (10:55):
Totally, yeah. Yeah. Actually one time as a young art student drew an Ann Getty's picture, so that's funny that you say that, but definitely that really draws my attention. Feelings of comfort, safety, sleep, rest, all big themes in my work. Yeah,

Allison Graham (11:15): Yeah, I loved that. I don't know if you're familiar with Fat Girl Flow on Instagram, Carissa?

Shoog McDaniel (11:23):
Yeah. I've never hung out with, but I am familiar that I think she makes some merchandise and she does camps or fat camps.

Allison Graham (11:35):
Yeah. This last month actually was the second year that I got a chance to go to Fat Camp. The first year we did not get photographed by professional boudoir photograph photographers, but this year we did, and I just had the most affirming experience with that in terms of my gender because I said, I don't want this to be very femme, and I felt very powerful in that, but also I really felt honored as a fab person when in the several times that I've watched her film since being asked to do this, I picked up on the part where it's near the end. You say the whole creation process is the art. These kinds of spaces are rare for us, but they're what we need to heal to create more fat art and to create more fat love. I thought that was a very powerful thing to say. The whole creation process is the art, so can you help our audience understand what fat bodies need to heal from?

Shoog McDaniel (12:56):
I mean, if you step outside, you open up your phone, anything. I mean, there's ads for Ozempic everywhere. There's Weight Watchers, there's even fat folks talking about wanting to lose weight even though they're so-called body positive. There's so many ways in which it's hidden in sub context everywhere in our world, if you look at representation who's in the media, it is just very, we're just underrepresented, specifically more marginalized folks with multiple marginalized identities, disabled folks, and it is just like all of that really is the reason that my work exists outside because inside feels a part of that. Almost just even the 90 degrees of the walls, everything is structured outside, feels a lot more fat and queer to me because you can look around and see succulent specifically in Florida, there's a lot of succulent plants. There's strange species and beautiful flowers, and it just feels a lot to me that I want to take people out of the context of the societal norms and put them in a place where they can be held and loved and really witnessed by nature, which I feel is the most beautiful witness and the most affirming place, healing from a lifetime of learning, of unlearning.
I'm healing from my parents telling me what to eat, who to be, how much I need to exercise. These are all things we're healing from rejection, a lot of rejection and bullies. The list goes on and on.

Allison Graham (14:53):
Yeah. I feel like we could talk about this specific question for a good hour. What I hear you saying about nature is that it's a wonderful witness, it's healing. I think also your work speaks to that. We don't see a lot of positive representation of fat people in nature. I think of people exercising to make themselves smaller or people commenting on their abilities and Well, you shouldn't do that. You should wait until you're smaller. Thinking about boating, kayaking, I really like that nature is your setting because it is challenging that idea of that only certain bodies are allowed in nature, especially when you are working with gender non-conforming people, non-binary people, trans folks, queer folks, so I really like that.

Shoog McDaniel (15:54):
Yeah, I think it is so, so important to push past what you think you are allowed to do and go towards what you want to do, and that's challenged of course by elements of fear and elements of real danger in some places. I think there's ways to be in communion with nature and also be safer about it. I think that it's ultimately very, very important to everyone's mental health. Honestly,

Allison Graham (16:25):
Something that I just thought of that's not on my question list is at one point in the movie you talk about living alone, but you're never lonely, so what does your community look like in terms of showing up for you as a fat queer person?

Shoog McDaniel (16:46):
My community is just so vast. I have so many people in my life and I'm so grateful for it, and it means that a lot of people come travel to me. I also travel to do work sometimes, but I'm actually trying to start a art residency at where I live, and that means that a lot of different artists, a lot of fat artists come here to create art with me. I have this beautiful resource of freshwater springs all around me, and I specifically bought this property before that, and I can create with people there. Community here is my neighbors. Honestly, a lot of my neighbors I become friends with. I have fat neighbors, marginalized neighbors. Then I have all the friends who visit me from Gainesville, which is a nearby town, so I have multiple friends there, and then I have out of town Fren who come and that probably happens at least twice a month that I'll have people at the residency. Yeah, I'm very blessed with people to support me and hold me when I need it and when I ask for help, I am not worried that I won't get it. It's just very lucky.

Allison Graham (18:01):
You say that you're very lucky. What I hear you saying is that you're also investing back into the community by creating this residency.

Shoog McDaniel (18:12):
Yeah. I mean it's everything to me. I was really a sad kid growing up. I didn't have many friends and I was in and out of the psych ward, but when I started understanding what it meant to have a real friend, it was life-changing for me. Now friendships are my lifeline. I don't have a partner.

Allison Graham (18:30):
Thank you for sharing that. So when I think about the link between reproductive justice and fat bodies, I think about autonomy over our bodies and our health and our own liberation. How do you configure reproductive justice within the world of fatness?

Shoog McDaniel (18:49):
Yeah, I think you hit right on it. Being able to do what we feel is the right thing for us, and of course there's also the connection of pregnant people hire me all the time and that's a beautiful thing to photograph. I've done a couple births as well. I think that, yeah, the real thread though is being able to talk to other people and understand that what's being told to us or narratives that we are hearing in the media and every day at the clinics are not the narrative that we have to live by or stay with. We can find other solutions and other options that can let us feel more empowered and move with autonomy throughout our day.

Allison Graham (19:42):
The first big chunk of the movie is underwater bad bodies in water, which as a fat person, it is magical to be in water because it's freedom and luxurious.

Shoog McDaniel (19:59): Yeah, it's the best.

Allison Graham (20:00):
So what was that experience like from a technical aspect to be underwater to shoot other bodies like that?

Shoog McDaniel (20:10):
Yeah, it's something I love doing. I'm usually on the surface kind of bobbing and shooting down, and this time there were some undershot and that wasn't really me. It was more just to be a buoyant human being and be able to use that to my advantage as a fat person. My friend and I often call it fat privilege when we're out there just floating, we're like, oh, we using our fat privilege. We can float without a float and I can study myself and hold the camera and take nice shots without having to worry, and so that's part of the magic out there. It feels very, very, almost like this ecstatic energy to be able to see shadows and waterlines caress and cover a fat body underwater is incredible to me.

Allison Graham (21:01):
I love that you used the words fat privilege. I love it. I was just started thinking a little bit about what are some of the other fat privileges that there are, and one of them comes to mind and if you buy into beauty standards, I didn't start getting wrinkles until I was 35, and I always look younger, fat privilege.

Shoog McDaniel (21:27):
My friend and I talk about how it's a fat privilege to go somewhere and everyone clears out because they're scared of fatness. We're like, we're the only ones here. People are scared. They're like, think it's going to rub off on them or something. Another one is fat Privilege is the customer of size, seat policy at Southwest Fat Privilege. There are some out there and we like to make sure we embrace them.

Allison Graham (21:54):
Yes, we got to find the joys with some of the systemic barriers.

Shoog McDaniel (22:03):
Exactly.

Allison Graham (22:05):
What future projects or plans do you have to continue the themes that were in this film or maybe even branch off into a different direction?

Shoog McDaniel (22:18):
Right now, what I'm really into is taking these dolls that are handmade by this artist friend of mine who lives in Turkey, and they send me these dolls and I can ask for them to be fat and trans, and they're these little naked dolls and I bring them with me to the springs and I put them underwater and film them, and I watch the fish become curious about them and swim around them, and I also create these narratives around the springs and saving the springs. They've really been making me feel hopeful because a lot of times it's easy to feel hopeless out here when things are changing at such a rapid rate in Florida and the environmental protections are disappearing, so to be able to use Little Dolls to help me tell stories feels really powerful to me, even though it's a simple and just kind of cute thing.
I also really want to work with people more. I think Covid really shifted. I used to be on a trajectory to do more and more bigger shoots with more and more fat folks, but again, that just feels like that pathway is kind of shut right now or could be forever, but I think that there are ways to get around it, and I do still really want to create sculptural works with fat bodies, so that's something I've done a few. I have a piece out called Fatty Mountain or something like that, and then I have a fat tree that I use people for too, so things like that really make me happy. Yeah.

Allison Graham (23:56):
My last question is what message or feeling do you hope audiences will take away after watching How to Carry Water?

Shoog McDaniel (24:08):
How beautiful Fatness is and how reverent it is and how important it is and how alive we are when everything in the media and everything coming out of your parents' mouths is telling you the opposite. It's all internalized hatred around European body standards that has been passed down and reinforced over and over again, and I want people to see the movie and not be able to see a difference between the beautiful spring water and the beautiful Belly. I want it to be one and the same. I want people to understand those bodies covered in flowers and fruits and vegetables as delicious and sexy as full beings that are not void somehow.

Allison Graham (25:09):
Do you have anything else that you want to share with our audience that's going to be watching this?

Shoog McDaniel (25:16):
I'm really happy y'all got a chance to watch it, and I hope you'll take from it to go out and make your life more liberated from fat phobia and embrace people in a way where you can see them as a full person, and not only that, but a full beautiful person.

Allison Graham (25:38):
Thank you so much for taking time to speak with us and be vulnerable and sharing some of these insights with us.

Shoog McDaniel (25:46):
Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for all your questions. It was wonderful.

Lela Meadow-Conner (25:52):
Once again, deep gratitude to Allison Graham and Shoog McDaniel for joining us for this month’s podcast. You can watch How to Carry Water right now at reprofilm.org. And learn more about Shoog at ShoogMcDaniel.com. Be sure to share this podcast episode with a friend and help us spread the repro film mission which is all about centering bodily autonomy through storytelling, film and conversation. The Repro Film podcast is executive produced by mama.film. Hosted and produced by me, Asha Dahya, Edited by Kylie Brown, With original music by ParisJane and Marrice Anthony. The periodical is programmed by Neha Aziz and written by Emily Christensen.